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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:33 pm 
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The wiki is in transfer now, so when and where can we begin contributing again?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:38 pm 
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Oluseyi wrote:
@Spodi:

You know what, forget everything that's gone before, because going back and forth nitpicking each other is counterproductive. What specific concerns do you have? No bullshit hypotheticals, now. List 'em and I'll address them to the best extent I can.


Good point. Its a bit too late to bring up anti-merging points since this argument went on a bit too long, so if I have any complaints on what is actually happening instead of what can happen, I will bring it up when I see it. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:45 am 
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Boder wrote:
I think it might be a chance to salvage old, rotting gdnet articles on the new wiki, but would that be possible because the old articles are copyrighted?

We will, at the very least, use the wiki as the publication platform for articles. This makes it easier to edit them - instead of needing to use external tools and specific formatting, editors will have access once they log into the site. This will help with fixing typos and other errors.

One thing using a wiki will allow us to do, also, is designate more members of the community as Community Contributors or Guardians (or whatever branding you want to slap on it) and let them help us with reviewing the 2,000+ articles on the site. We want to preserve all the articles, but we want to place clear editorial statements that certain articles are primarily of historical interest or applicable only in certain contexts, etc. The standard form would be to place that note at the top using a custom tag, then place a more comprehensive explanation at the bottom. Without making the article as a whole public domain, even this adds tremendous value for everyone.

As for contributing them to the public domain wiki, the articles are the property of the authors, to which we have been granted a perpetual but non-exclusive license (unless we paid money to commission them, which is rare). In the instance that we own the article outright (commissioned) or can secure a release from authors, something Richard and Drew have expressed interest in pursuing, we will contribute them to the wiki. Ultimately, though, I think it's best if an article intended for static publication remain a reference, with a new wiki article - or several - with broader scope emerging that may link to it if it contains valuable original work.

Alternately, we could maintain the original article statically, then have an open errata section editable by all. There are a lot of different opportunities here, so we'll be putting proposals before the community as the platform stabilizes.

Boder wrote:
Some people are concerned about the informal, personal pages. I don't think they would be deleted, but maybe moved or if they really aren't helpful, they could be deleted after being discussed on the talk page.

No, they won't be deleted. Not as policy. We've been talking internally about something called "GDNet Home," which takes your current profile page and expands it to list projects you've been a part of, workshops you've taken, showcase contributions, etc in a way that essentially constitutes a game development community portfolio. You'd also be able to advertise your availability for various positions, whether commercial or no, and services you offer.

The personal pages and our current user profiles will probably merge to become "GDNet Home", so everyone who is a registered member of GDNet will have one. Being a wiki, of course, people can create personal pages as wiki articles, and we won't object to this as policy. We'll leave that to the community to determine its cultural preferences.

Boder wrote:
To me, I've seen the gpwiki recently floundering in spam and not adding as much new content. To combat spam, it is possible to allow only registered users to edit, but at the same time you miss out on a lot of typos being fixed.

I'm adamantly opposed to registered-user-only editing. I've made contributions to Wikipedia, for instance - typo corrections, factual corrections, grammar revisions - but I've never registered for an account.

Boder wrote:
The wiki is in transfer now, so when and where can we begin contributing again?

I'll have to conference with Superpig on that one. I'm not sure how much adjustment he wants to make before making the wiki live - user integration? content guideline publication? I'll get back to you as soon as I can.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:48 am 
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Spodi wrote:
Good point. Its a bit too late to bring up anti-merging points since this argument went on a bit too long, so if I have any complaints on what is actually happening instead of what can happen, I will bring it up when I see it. ;)

Entirely reasonable, sir. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:33 am 
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Oluseyi wrote:
Boder wrote:
I think it might be a chance to salvage old, rotting gdnet articles on the new wiki, but would that be possible because the old articles are copyrighted?

We will, at the very least, use the wiki as the publication platform for articles. This makes it easier to edit them - instead of needing to use external tools and specific formatting, editors will have access once they log into the site. This will help with fixing typos and other errors.

One thing using a wiki will allow us to do, also, is designate more members of the community as Community Contributors or Guardians (or whatever branding you want to slap on it) and let them help us with reviewing the 2,000+ articles on the site. We want to preserve all the articles, but we want to place clear editorial statements that certain articles are primarily of historical interest or applicable only in certain contexts, etc. The standard form would be to place that note at the top using a custom tag, then place a more comprehensive explanation at the bottom. Without making the article as a whole public domain, even this adds tremendous value for everyone.

As for contributing them to the public domain wiki, the articles are the property of the authors, to which we have been granted a perpetual but non-exclusive license (unless we paid money to commission them, which is rare). In the instance that we own the article outright (commissioned) or can secure a release from authors, something Richard and Drew have expressed interest in pursuing, we will contribute them to the wiki. Ultimately, though, I think it's best if an article intended for static publication remain a reference, with a new wiki article - or several - with broader scope emerging that may link to it if it contains valuable original work.

Alternately, we could maintain the original article statically, then have an open errata section editable by all. There are a lot of different opportunities here, so we'll be putting proposals before the community as the platform stabilizes.


Yes, that's what I was thinking of as well :). It's possible to include another page by templating right? So at the bottom there could be an included page which would be editable, with errate, improvements, comments, etc.

Oluseyi wrote:
Boder wrote:
Some people are concerned about the informal, personal pages. I don't think they would be deleted, but maybe moved or if they really aren't helpful, they could be deleted after being discussed on the talk page.

No, they won't be deleted. Not as policy. We've been talking internally about something called "GDNet Home," which takes your current profile page and expands it to list projects you've been a part of, workshops you've taken, showcase contributions, etc in a way that essentially constitutes a game development community portfolio. You'd also be able to advertise your availability for various positions, whether commercial or no, and services you offer.

The personal pages and our current user profiles will probably merge to become "GDNet Home", so everyone who is a registered member of GDNet will have one. Being a wiki, of course, people can create personal pages as wiki articles, and we won't object to this as policy. We'll leave that to the community to determine its cultural preferences.

Boder wrote:
To me, I've seen the gpwiki recently floundering in spam and not adding as much new content. To combat spam, it is possible to allow only registered users to edit, but at the same time you miss out on a lot of typos being fixed.

I'm adamantly opposed to registered-user-only editing. I've made contributions to Wikipedia, for instance - typo corrections, factual corrections, grammar revisions - but I've never registered for an account.


Same. I really think people are "register tired" on the web now a days (Hence sites such as bugmenot exist). I think it might be handy to see if we can use the same Regular expressions we use at this forum, at the wiki. Maybe there is some kind of regexp check mod already, where you can simply add validation regexps? They have been working awesome at this forum.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:35 pm 
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Oluseyi wrote:
Boder wrote:
To me, I've seen the gpwiki recently floundering in spam and not adding as much new content. To combat spam, it is possible to allow only registered users to edit, but at the same time you miss out on a lot of typos being fixed.

I'm adamantly opposed to registered-user-only editing. I've made contributions to Wikipedia, for instance - typo corrections, factual corrections, grammar revisions - but I've never registered for an account.


I don't think we need to worry about spam until it happens. One person can easily anti-spam a wiki with 100+ edits a day in less than an hour. Its not a fun job, nor should one single person be dedicated to it, but it is not a big concern. Unregistered editing is a huge convenience, no doubt about that. I even made a ton of my edits on GPWiki not logged in just because I didn't need any of my account's permissions to do what I wanted.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:29 pm 
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What will happen to all the edits in the interim?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:43 pm 
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I would assume that once they have it all set up, Ryan can make another database dump for them to use then lock the wiki to prevent people from making any more changes which will end up getting lost. After they set up the wiki and get it working, it shouldn't take long nor be difficult to just update the database with a newer dump.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:27 pm 
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Spodi is correct.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:10 pm 
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The wiki is live, even though we haven't made any changes (alterations to even mention GameDev, for instance) yet. I haven't had a chance to confirm from Superpig whether it's live for editing, and what the state is with user accounts, but I just wanted to pass on that tidbit.

Poke around, kick the tires, keep us honest! :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:47 pm 
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Performance looks good though! 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:37 pm 
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It's live, and I've put it through a few tests to make sure the important plugins are working.

We need to do a re-dump of the database though, to get the latest changes. Then we need to turn off our wiki, and link to wiki.gamedev.net.

Almost there.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:07 pm 
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I was able to edit my user page with no problems and performance looks good for me as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Sorry about the delay, folks. I think Ryan and I are now ready to do the transfer for real.

Please don't make any significant changes to wiki.gamedev.net, as they're likely to be overwritten with a new database from gpwiki. (Of course, by all means continue making changes to gpwiki). Feel free to make small edits to test that things are working though. Just make sure you're editing wiki.gamedev.net and not gpwiki.org :)

What's probably going to happen, when Ryan and I are both ready, is that he'll make gpwiki read-only before sending me a database dump; that way, even if we end up out of sync by an hour, we won't lose any edits in the transfer.

Glad you approve of the performance. The wiki's actually hosted on the same physical server as the main gamedev site, but in a separate virtual machine; as well as allowing us to keep the wiki very isolated (and to run it under LAMP instead of WISA), it means that if performance does become a problem, moving the site to a new server is as simple as copying a few files over.

Also, a note to people who've been worried about the exposure of these forums once the wiki moves: one thing I think we can definitely keep is the link to this forum in the wiki sidebar. Instead of replacing it with a link to the GDNet forums, I figure we can just have two links - "GDNet forum" and "gpwiki.org forum" - so people will be easily able to see both. How does that sound?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:33 pm 
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Horray! Any approximation on when it'll be ready for us?

I find the "dual forum links" a bit strange personally, at least where they are now. I do believe a forum link should be up there, but to a separate forum just for the wiki. I'm not talking about a branch-off section like GPWiki has now with this very category, but a completely separate forum focused at the wiki and not gathering a user-base. No "off topic", no "lounge", no "needless socialization". Just a place where people can plan out what the wiki as a whole can use to improve (categorization suggestions, features, etc) along with "How do I do..." questions. Talk pages are nice but when it comes to questions not about a page, its hard to find where to throw the question and often times they'll end up on a completely random and irrelevant page and deleted for spam or never answered.

Maybe from this forum a link can be made to the GPWiki and GameDev forums - I would have no problem with that at all. I would just really like the primary forum link be a link to a dedicated and completely focused towards the wiki.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:07 pm 
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Spodi wrote:
Horray! Any approximation on when it'll be ready for us?
As soon as Ryan and I both find ourself with a bit of free time at the same time, it won't take more than an hour to actually do the transfer. I don't know what Ryan's schedule is like, but I'm fairly free most days ('cept this coming Monday afternoon/Tuesday) so hopefully it will happen soon.

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I find the "dual forum links" a bit strange personally, at least where they are now. I do believe a forum link should be up there, but to a separate forum just for the wiki. I'm not talking about a branch-off section like GPWiki has now with this very category, but a completely separate forum focused at the wiki and not gathering a user-base. No "off topic", no "lounge", no "needless socialization". Just a place where people can plan out what the wiki as a whole can use to improve (categorization suggestions, features, etc) along with "How do I do..." questions. Talk pages are nice but when it comes to questions not about a page, its hard to find where to throw the question and often times they'll end up on a completely random and irrelevant page and deleted for spam or never answered.
We might do that, but GDNet's general policy towards forums is to not create it until people are already posting topics that would go into it. I guess they're doing that here already, though I'm seeing what looks like an average of 3 topics a month in here. If the traffic level is that low, I don't think there'd be a problem with people using our "Comments, Suggestions, and Ideas" forum that we use for this kind of thing across the entire site.

To be honest, I'm not convinced that a dedicated forum will ever become necessary. To my knowledge Wikipedia doesn't have any kind of companion discussion forum, and they probably have a greater scope for organisational problems than any other wiki on the web. I wonder if creating a forum would result in people choosing to talk about the changes they want to make instead of actually making them. Often there is no "right" way to organise information, and people can get mired in discussing the pros and cons of their pet approaches when all it really needs is for somebody do actually do something, and then everybody else will realise that while it might not have been their preferred approach, it's good enough.

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Maybe from this forum a link can be made to the GPWiki and GameDev forums - I would have no problem with that at all. I would just really like the primary forum link be a link to a dedicated and completely focused towards the wiki.
Most of the people who go from the wiki to the forums to ask a question or post a thread won't be asking about the wiki itself, though - they'll be asking about game development in general. You can see that from the balance between the forums here on this site - "Content Issues" makes for a pretty small component of the total topic base. Why make the large group of game-development-question-askers click out of the wiki-forum to get back to the forum index, instead of making the smaller group of would-be-wiki-gardeners click in to the wiki-forum from the forum index? Utilitarianism would suggest the latter approach...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Got your email, Superpig, but I was busy all weekend. I'm ready to go ahead now, though. I'll make the wiki read-only shortly, and upload a database dump for you. Then you can get it rolling whenever you have time, and I'll start pointing people to the gamedev wiki once the latest dump is online.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:26 am 
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I see that there is now a link to the wiki from the GD.net frontpage, but it is timing out for me.

Has any work been done on this or have our GD brothers lost interest?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 am 
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I know some have done quite a bit of work. I did a bit myself. But its a shame it still hasn't become more public and promoted.

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