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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:46 am 
Digerati

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 1819
Location: burrowed
After what felt like 2 years egoraptor finally created the third part of sequilitis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOC3vixnj_0
He makes some interesting and in my opinion very valid points, and as always, makes me change perspective on game design at least a bit once more.

If you havent checked out this series i highly recommend watching the parts about castlevania and megaman(especially megaman) aswell!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

What are your views on the matter?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:15 pm 
Bytewise
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:32 pm
Posts: 272
I know egoraptor but I never seen these, so I'll comment on all of them:

1. The Grinding thing in castlevania, I don't know if I really agree fully. I think grinding can be fun if it's designed correctly. as an example i would really like to point to skyrim, as you never really think of it as grinding, but in the end, that's what it is, you keep killing the same enemies over and over again. Mostly because theres an interesting story behind all of those sections and caves and in the end... if you define grinding as concious farming of resources by killing enemies over and over again, then it's not that. but the point I'm trying to make is, that with good game design you can make the player do pointless little task and gathering tons of resources as an side-effect of such an act. so you can prolong the game by making the player kill tons of enemies without it feeling like grinding for anything while doing exactly that.

2.
I fully agree with the megamen one and I think egoraptor pointed some good stuff there. todays games really do act like if the gamers are stupid idiots. But when you think about it, thats exactly what happened in return (lol, I can see a conspiracy theory here xD). Easy to understand, repetitive games dominate the market now and gamers are getting more and more primitive. hooray for some interesting game as castle builder, Kerbal space program, Space engineers and the like. Most of these games have almost no explanation involved and depend fully on the player figuring different solutions to different problems on his own. This really does feel refreshing next to games like battlefield, assassins creed, crysis and whatnot. Those games are really grate and have some strategy and problem solving involved, but most of the problem solutions are thrown at you in the very first missions or game hints.

3. I don't know if this really is something to be thinking about. Yes... mistakes were made but all of this simply boils down to developers being either lazy or if the franchise was moved to a new studio, they will feel that they need to keep the old stuff going because they have no idea what the game is supposed to achieve in the long run. Also it's discouraging as you can see companies doing new stuff and it almost never works out. but kudos for trying!

anyway I have a feeling I'm a little too drunk to keep writing a meaningfull text xD so just... read in-between the lines

EDIT:
Lol, I didn't notice there was a zelda one you posted X_x it wasn't in the playlist i watched... :D well.. give me some time to watch that and I'll come back to that :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:32 am 
Bytewise
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:32 pm
Posts: 272
Ok, I looked at that and, it's really hard to say my opinion because he did touch about hundred subjects there but lets try.

so the waiting in ocarina of time. Yes... it takes too damn long, it stops the games pace and it forces the player to pretty much put his fingers off the controler which in return breaks the tension and build-up which they are trying to achieve. Suddenly you realize you are not a hero... you are not a great adventurer.. you are just a dude playin' video games. Thats what it does.. so yes... time should be used carefully in game design. I don't think theres a problem with waiting during a dialog or some important parts of the game that actually show the game world changing, as long as you stay immersed in the story and world around you.

Automatic aiming in 3D TPS/TPF and it completely changing the gameplay. I don't see this as a problem. It makes you more attached to the fighting. It's supposed to simulate full focus of the hero. thats why it's usually much more narrow view. And in return the player is fully focused on every detail of the battle. Sure, fighting small flying stuff is anoying and while Z aim is trying to address that, it doesn't solve it completely, but I'm sure there are games that does it properly.

Limited view during 3D gameplay (A.K.A being backstabbed by mobs). Again, it just reminds the player that now they are in a 3D world and they should always be warry of the environment... tho what was done in Zelda was a dick move really. In good game design the player should be able to figure out that he is going to get attacked or at least get a sound que or something. In the end it should always boil down to the players skill to deduce and react promptly and Zelda just didn't do that correctly with the 3D view.

being railroaded around the world. I would say this is the biggest problem with RPG games in general... the meaning in Role Playing Game lost it's actual meaning if you make it in a "Watch someone else play a role in a game while you have to press the buttons anyway...". What I mean is, if you are playing an RPG and you can't actually play your role on your own but you are constantly pushed around and told what to do, thats a problem. It completely kills the exploration and in return the whole genre.

I don't remember any more points he made now.. come on.. it's 30 minutes of video and he's talking freakin' fast xD... But I would like to hear the opinion of the other users as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:36 am 
Digerati

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 1819
Location: burrowed
Grinding is, i think per definition, the task of repetitively doing a certain (and oftentimes completely boring and skilless) task, to achieve a goal (gathering money, items) without actually playing the game, but still is required to progress.
What you described is playing the game, not grinding. If you have extensive grinds in your game, you probably designed it wrong.

For the megaman part, yeah, i love the intro stage. It's awesome and i could gush about it almost as much as egoraptor, it aswell makes, if i may, my dick rock hard :rock
The dumb-downness, or overtutorialization, or whatever you wanna call it is really driving me insane. especially if unskippable and presented in a really awkward and annoying fashion (extensive dialogs to bring across a simple point).
Text like "press jump to jump" doesnt really help either. Sure, with the keyboard you have a bunch of available buttons to press, but you might aswell show your players what keys are bound in the menu/options screen, or, god forbid, have a control config (it's not so hard to do, come on people).

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