I hadn't mentioned it explicitly, but I was thinking in terms of shying away from the classical XP and levels system. So basically downplay the character level, and have the focus diverted to more strategic issues when fighting monsters. Where you have to make good choices about how to engages the monsters in order to beat them. And specifically to remove the crutch of "Darn, I can't beat this guy, lemme go grind another level or two and then cakewalk over him." I'm not wedded to the idea, but I think it could be cool. It would let us explore the more cerebral flavours of strategy in an RPG setting.


I'm not sure open ended is the best way. It sounds good on paper, but any game has a limited shelf life and there's ostensibly enjoyment to be had from replaying a non-open-ended game either on a harder difficulty or with self-imposed restrictions to extend the enjoyment. Open ended games tend to bore me more quickly than those with a set arc.

I like the dragon boss idea Dragons are awesome!

So can we decide on:

1) Levels or no levels
and
2) Open ended or finite.

My votes are for the latter in both cases. I really dig your level damage demonstration, so if you're very keen on the levels and open endedness, that's fine with me

Shall we set up a repository on assembla for sharing code? My preference is to use git to manage source control.



Duuuuuuuuude. Oh, that screenshot is painful!

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Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve

On reflection I think the damage outcomes should be simplified to : Miss/Hit/Crit. I feel that Glance blurs the line between Miss and Hit too much. It's neither one thing nor the other. Plus it interferes with Evasion,which should really be boosting Miss rather than boosting Glance.

Also, I've reduced the perspective on the mockup I made. The floor is shaded darker close to walls. I think the lower wall height is quite nice.

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

The way I was thinking about it, you can't really grind because you only have your dungeon.

<-- 2048

Once you get a level up, your next dungeons will be made at a higher level, to match your new player level. So at most, you could level up +1 in the dungeon you're playing through. The way this affects strategy is that you might change your plan, and tackle the monsters in a different order than you normally would.

A dungeon could even be designed with the expectation of a level-up, which makes some monsters be +1 level.



The way I was thinking about it, the game would essentially be finite with the seven dragons, and once you defeat them that is effectively the end. But at the end, the player can still play more dungeons if they want to, and keep their level 25 hero.



I don't know yet. When we start on the actual programming, we can sort something out then.

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

That looks very cool, the darker shading of floor tiles gives a nice feeling of depth to the room.

I also like the idea of letting the game continue after the seven dragons have been defeated. It's definitely fun to be able to stomp around with your maxed out character after defeating the final boss.

Given that we'll be designing the dungeon with an expectation of 1 level per dungeon, let me propose the following system that keeps some of the flavour of what I was suggesting.

Character gains 1 level per dungeon (we populate the dungeon with 1 level worth of experience in monsters, including boss)
Levelling up gives a bonus to stats
Each dungeon exit is guarded by a dragon boss
There are 7 dragon bosses
Defeating a boss gives the player a new spell
After defeating the boss, there are two choices of which dungeon to approach next, also explaining what spell is available in the dungeon
The bosses are organised in a binary tree / graph structure

_________________
Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve

Then the player will only level up at the end of each dungeon - an exact time. If we vary it a little then it will be less certain when a level-up will occur.


Yes, and a stat bonus for the monsters too. The stat difference should be big enough to be noticeable, but not so big that you cannot defeat monsters +1 levels above you.

There are three main stats: HP, Damage, Average Damage Factor (Hit Chance). The effects multiply together. So increasing all three by a factor of 1.1 would be equivalent to 1.1^3 = a 33% stronger monster. ie, you can expect to take 33% more damage defeating it.


What about my idea of having the dragons in separate dragon dungeons?

There can be a time in the game when you're supposed to take on the dragon dungeons. Trying them too early, and the dragon will be too powerful for you. But a sudden jump in dungeon difficulty at that key time will mean that you won't be able to complete the normal dungeons without the dragon's artefact.


okay, and I like how you've associated the colours with the sins.



We'll have to be careful not to make the spells conflict with the hero's own abilities.

The plan I had was to have four classes. Each Base class has three abilities. After X levels, the hero upgrades to an Intermediate Class (Fighter becomes Warrior) and two more abilities are available. After 2X levels it upgrades again to an Advanced Class (Warrior becomes Knight) and two more abilities are available.

Of those 7 abilities:
1x Direct damage ability
1x Damage-over-time ability
1x Self help ability
2x Monster weakening abilities
2x Strange abilities, that can be both a benefit and a curse (Compare with Unholy frenzy, or Purge, or Lightning Shield in WC3)

Rather than spells, what if the dragons drop a collection of equipment {armor, weapon, mana pendant, or dragon wards, etc), and you only get to pick one of them that you think will most benefit your class.



As the player levels up, then the dragons will become progressively easier. I think they should be in fixed order - that way players can boast how far they got...

Player 1 : "I beat the red dragon!"
Player 2: "Wow! I've only managed to get upto the black dragon, but I keep getting killed. How do you not get burned by it's acid attack?"
Player 1: "You need to get the vitreous armor from the blue dragon."
Player 2: "But I got the lightning wand."
Player 1: "OMG you noob! LOL at lightning wand."

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

I think I'm misunderstanding how that'll work. Could you go into a bit more detail or post a sketch of how that progression works? If there are two kinds of dungeons, how does the player go between them?


There are two ways we can tackle this: 1) classic RPG style 2) mega man style.

In the classic RPG style every class would have its own set of abilities which it unlocks as it progresses. So in this case, I agree that it would be better to have the dragons drop a selection of items which the player can choose from to benefit their class. As you say, this style would also be best with a linear progression through the dragons. The progression shown in the graph could also work if dungeon monsters are auto-levelled to player's level, giving the player some choices (then saving Wrath for last).

In the mega man style, there is not a class system beyond giving different starting stats to the various classes. After that, the player would unlock abilities by defeating dragons. The player would have a mêlée and a magic attack (fireball), with dragon abilities also costing mana. Depending on what runes the player finds he will adapt his play to use more mêlée or magic attacks. At level 1, the attacks that can be used are strongly tied to the base statistics from the chosen class. As play progresses it would become much more variable as the skills are unlocked and runes are found. The progression in this style would be best with no limit on choosing which dragon to battle, as this is effectively choosing the player's next skill.

I like that selection of skills you've laid out. We could use that either way (as dragon abilities or class abilities, depending on what type of progression we use).


If we're going to be auto-levelling the mobs on each dungeon to match the player's level, then we could do the same for the dragons. (Is levelling up monsters as the player levels what you mean by "Yes, and monsters too."?)


Oh man, am I ever glad I always Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C right before I click Preview or Submit

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Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve

There would be some sort of game selection screen, where you select dungeon or dragon lair. It could take the form of an overworld part of the game with the dungeon/dragon lair entrances appearing as portals, like in Diablo II. (where the Blood Moor was the overworld, and the Den of Evil was the dungeon.)




Yes, that's what I meant.

Also: If you want to change your dragon artefact, you have visit the grey wizard in the overworld, and have a dragon resurrected. This grey wizard can bind the whole game together. The game story could be that this wizard wants to do something important, and needs to concoct a spell using seven vials of dragon's blood, which you are quested to obtain.

~~~~




I always copy text to clipboard too. But with this Camino browser that I now use, it really is unnecessary. Camino remembers what text boxes hold, so I can click the back button and all my typing is still there. Only when I reload the page is that data cleared.

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

Stop breaking the forum!

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10 PRINT "Bad Monkey ";
20 GOTO 10

Some thoughts...

Races

Human
-- Attack 14 / Vitality 14 / Magic 14
-- 5% Regeneration Bonus
-- Some passive ability

Dwarf
-- Attack 14 / Vitality 16 / Magic 12
-- 10% Cold Resistance
-- Can sense treasure items on the dungeon map.

Elf
-- Attack 12 / Vitality 14 / Magic 16
-- 10% Arcane Resistance
-- Some passive ability

Halfling
-- Attack 16 / Vitality 12 / Magic 14
-- 10% Poison Resistance
-- Some passive ability


Classes

Basic --> Intermediate --> Advanced
Fighter --> Warrior --> Knight
-- Attack +3 / Vitality +6 / Magic +0

Thief --> Rogue --> Assassin
-- Attack +6 / Vitality +3 / Magic +0

Wizard --> Sorcerer --> Archmage
-- Attack +0 / Vitality +0 / Magic +9

Priest --> Monk --> Paladin
-- Attack +1 / Vitality +1 / Magic +7

example: Level 1 Elven Wizard: Attack 12 / Vitality 14 / Magic 25 --> Hitpoints 140 / Mana 250 / Melee Damage 12
example: Level 1 Human Priest: Attack 15 / Vitality 15 / Magic 21 --> Hitpoints 150 / Mana 210 / Melee Damage 15
example: Level 1 Dwarven Fighter: Attack 17 / Vitality 22 / Magic 12 --> Hitpoints 220 / Mana 120 / Melee Damage 17
example: Level 1 Halfling Thief: Attack 22 / Vitality 15 / Magic 14 --> Hitpoints 150 / Mana 140 / Melee Damage 22

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

IMO, the races should be configured a bit differently in order to keep with tradition, as to not cause confusion.

Humans tend to be the "Gold standard" by which other races are compared.
Dwarfs tend to be strong and hardy, but often detest magic.
Elves aren't as beefy, but tend to be more adept at magic.
Halflings are weaker than humans (that's one glaring difference in your setup), their primary strength being speed and agility.

Here are some other ideas for each race:
Human Special Ability should be something that involves the ability to survive under the grimmest of circumstances. Perhaps a "saving throw" against a killing blow would be an idea.

Dwarfs Special Ability would be likely something combat-related... perhaps an "allowance" of free critical attacks (such as 'one automatic critical attack per day').

As for Elves, they could have a boost in spell power. Alternatively, give them some feat that represents being in tune with surroundings (such as being able to immediately detect hidden passages).

And for Halflings, you could make it so that they aren't detected as easily by enemies as other races.

Also, consider adding another class hierarchy:

Cleric --> Paladin --> Warpriest
-- Attack +2 / Vitality +2 / Magic +5

Also, I would reorder the Priest/Monk/Paladin line to something like:
Monk --> Priest --> Archbishop
And make the stat modifiers more like:
-- Attack +1 / Vitality + 3 / Magic +5

By the way, the graphics stuff is lookin' good Keep up the good work!

_________________
What most people don't understand about "enlightenment" is that it is not an end-goal; but where you find yourself just before taking a new "first step."

The way I designed it, humans were average, and for the other races, each is strongest in one stat and weakest in another, and there is only one way of doing that (although the rows and columns can be shuffled)
A) + - =
B) - = +
C) = + -

For halflings, how does agility and speed translate to my stats? I feel agility is closest to attack than the others. Speed doesn't really add anything if combat is turn based, but I could give halflings a bonus that makes them take first strikes more frequently. Maybe give them an evasion bonus too?



That's an interesting suggestion. I don't mind adding a couple of extra classes as long as we can think of enough abilities for them.

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

This is why there's usually a dexterity stat. Dexterity = offense, agility = defense, speed = order of attack.

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Bored? Head on over to my blog and see what I'm up to.

Microsoft XNA MVP

When the modifiers from runes are added, it may be helpful to have other stats, so that players can see what is going on.

ie,

evasion [what you call agility]
melee crit [what you call dexterity]
spell crit.
a first strike stat, that closely follows character level. [what you call speed]
fire resistance
cold resistance
poison resistance
arcane resistance

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

Evasion is a skill, which agility helps out with.
Melee crits are determined partially by dexterity.
Resistances are determined by stamina usually, unless it's magic resistance which is determined by whatever stat magic is based on.

Maybe I'm just hardcore/purist in my RPG thinking, but I've been tweaking my RPG stuff for years. This popped up last night during a search and I was amazed it was still there.

_________________
Bored? Head on over to my blog and see what I'm up to.

Microsoft XNA MVP

I don't want the stats system to be too complicated. When we have "primary stat A contributes something towards secondary stat B", it starts to feel messy and is harder to understand.

So I'd rather the attributes directly determine things in the game. For example, have an evasion attribute, instead of calculating evasion from various other attributes.

I thought initially about using an STR/AGI/INT based system, but realised that it would be messy working out where damage comes from
--> thieves presumably use AGI for damage, not STR
--> If we calculate HP from STR, then damage and HP are linked, meaning it's impossible to have one high and one low.
--> Adding a stat like CON to unlink HP and damage would render some stats less useful for some classes, like STR would be useless to a thief.
--> more complexity and mess.

So I decided that a simple Attack/Vitality/Magic system would fix that. It's only coincidental that desktop dungeons uses the same thing. I really didn't notice until afterwards..






Or what about having a grey wizard (good) and a dark wizard/warlock (evil). The grey wizard wants to defeat the warlock and needs the seven vials of dragon's blood to do it. If you don't like the artefact you got from a dragon, then you can have the dragon resurrected so you can defeat it again. You have to visit the warlock to make that happen.

We could make that a bit of a puzzle. Some artefacts can be a bit underpowered, while some can be necessary, like needing the vitreous armor to survive the black dragon.

We could weave light/dark into the game, such that the player is constantly torn between the two paths, and it can be a strategic thing:

light = things that are a good long term investment, but are weaker in the present.
dark = things that are a bad long term investment, but are stronger in the present.

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.

A speed/agility/dexterity stat isn't really needed for Desktop Dungeons, though. I mean, the other monsters don't even, you know, come after you, so it would probably just be a nerf stat.

But indeed -- making it affect frequency of evasions and/or successful attacks are ideas. Also my previous suggestion (stealth -- making it so that monsters aren't so quick to come after you) could be workable, depending on that sort of thing is handled.

_________________
What most people don't understand about "enlightenment" is that it is not an end-goal; but where you find yourself just before taking a new "first step."

Easy:

Holy Warrior path (Cleric>Paladin>Warpriest):
Turn Undead -- Undead type enemies (Zombies, spirits, and so on) in the immediate area are either stricken with paralyzing fear -- or outright destruction -- depending on the prowess of its caster.

Pious Adventurer path (Monk>Priest>Archbishop):
Divine Protection -- When active, all members of the character's party receive a temporary boost to defense and magic resistance. Can be activated for up to one full hour per day (for example).

_________________
What most people don't understand about "enlightenment" is that it is not an end-goal; but where you find yourself just before taking a new "first step."

Just installed VB 6, the new project screen brings back memories

How are you doing proc-gen and the drawing with OpenGL? Can you explain the algorithm a bit? I'm guessing you start off fully connected and then have some way of randomly breaking connections.

Combat will be turn-based, let's make navigation turn based as well.

Let's also mark the following as pretty much approved:
the 4 races you specified
simple stats system: atk/vitality/magic
turn-based everything

The warlock / wizard idea doesn't seem to gel. If the wizard has the power to resurrect some kind of primal dragon that embodies one of the seven deadly sins, what's he need us for? Sure you can have some line of story to explain it, but I don't buy it. David Eddings pulls these kinds of stunts in his books a lot and it grinds my unmentionables every time.

Just curious, why do you want to do the regular linear RPG rather than mega man style?

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Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve

How does that jibe? If you want to make an RPG, do it right -- if you're going turn-based and plan to move people around, a speed/agility/dexterity stat is virtually a must. It can just be one extra stat called "Speed" or something of that nature. I know it complicates things a bit, but it's also going to become clear later on that it will have more of a positive effect putting it in than the positive effect of leaving it out.

IMHO, of course.

_________________
What most people don't understand about "enlightenment" is that it is not an end-goal; but where you find yourself just before taking a new "first step."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRU0h5CUAPw



procgen: In both breadth first search and depth first search, you push nodes onto a stack. The difference is that with DFS, they are popped from the top, and in BFS they are popped from the bottom (formally called a queue). But you can also pop them from somewhere inbetween, which is what I'm doing here. This creates a random spanning tree of the nodes. Extra arcs are then added to bridge some % of branches. (I set it to 15% iirc)

opengl: I believe you can import functions from opengl32.dll, but the way I do it is to use a type library, that imports everything for you. Add it as a reference in the project menu.



In the mega-man style, it seems like it's too easy to see all of the bosses. And while that may appease one's curiosity, I think it's comparable with opening all your christmas presents at once -- you have nothing more to look forward to. Deferred gratification is good for long term enjoyment. Players must earn the right to see the red dragon: Keep it elusive, and keep the mystery of it alive until the end. Similarly with all the dragons above your own level.

When the bosses appear in fixed order, then defeating the blue dragon has meaning. It's a stage in the game that people can identify with.
In contrast, defeating 4 out of 7 dragons doesn't have as much meaning, because numbers don't evoke emotions. People don't readily identify with numbers.

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I ain't pushing no moon buttons.