Seems random number generation is ubiquitous in the "traditional" RPG (since the original Dungeons & Dragons pen & paper rules were published in 1974). That being the case, I'm interested in making a similar style of RPG, but using (mostly) deterministic methods rather than relying primarily on random numbers.

I remembered the old Kroz games, which kept me glued to my 386 PC for days on end when I was younger. (If you aren't familiar with the series, the game (and the Turbo Pascal source) can be downloaded from the publisher as freeware. Requires DOS/DOSbox to play.) Although more accurately an "adventure puzzler," I think it would be an idea to take its deterministic design principles and apply them to a more casual-style RPG-like game. According to the original author:


( Source: http://www.rinkworks.com/apogee/s/2.8.1.shtml )

I am considering expanding this type of play by transitioning things to deterministic resolution. Some things are relatively easy to transition, such as attack damage. Some things would not transition, such as AI behavior (and, optionally, level design). Of course, there are other things that could be switched-over, but that's where it may get tricky. These would primarily involve skill checks.

Typically, a skill level provides a character with a roll bonus, making them "better" (more likely to succeed) at using a skill. An average climber might have a Climbing level of 0; an experienced climber might have Climbing +6.

One idea I've gravitated toward is to have a skill "requirement" that would allow a character to bypass chance. Something like forcing a skill check, but only if the character does not meet the "requirement" (so even if the character is an inexperienced climber, it would not necessarily mean he would automatically fail). Of course, this brings with it potential issues -- for example, taking into account situations that might require a "minimum" amount of skill which, if unmet, would result in "auto-fail", or making some actions have "strictly checked" requirements, which would simply be a standard DC check (i.e. a skill check would be required regardless of skill level).

Any thoughts?

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I think there's always an element of chance. Even the most experienced climber can make mistakes and a novice might just scale an impossible wall through luck.

I'm not sure how to factor in these things apart from including something like a million-to-one chance roll in automatic pass/fail situations.

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A couple things to consider.

1) You don't need to be skilled in a subject to potentially succeed in it, depending on your intelligence. I believe that a "high int score" should sortof "force" basic competency with many subjects. You might know nothing about plumbing, for instance.. but if you're a sufficiently intelligent person, you can figure out how to fix your leak. Actually not that long ago, my girlfriend was having trouble with her car starter. she brought it to the "Geek Squad" at Best Buy who couldn't figure it out and told her she'd have to buy a whole new unit($200 or so). I had a look at it just for the hell of it. I know nothing about car starters, but I do know a little about electric circuits.. enough to recognize that the circuit was broken by the missing LED light. So i connected the circuit with some aluminum foil and bingo, it works.

Another way to approach this is to take a look at how Mass Effect handled hacking. There was no random dice roll, no check of a 'hacking skill'.. it was a little mini-game that you were either good at or you weren't. It was kindof neat and made hacking fun.

2) You might look at a skill value based model. It's still partially based on chance, but largely on player's 'skill' stat. Example, your newbie character might start off with 50% in any given skill. As he levels up, his skills can increase.. lets say hes a level 8 or so, whatever... and he has 70% in a skill. Whenever he performs an action that uses that skill, a 'dice' is rolled ("random" number between 1 and 100).. if he rolls below his skill level (70) he succeeds. Above it, he fails. I've seen that system used in pen-and-paper RPGs to great effect. Something to bear in mind.

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Man you always make my head go full of ideas
i just pictured a steep wall or cliff in a third person rpg and you can only climb it up with a high level in the climbing skill. I think such is undone as of yet.

I like what Jimbo mentioned. Abilities where you don't read the number off a sheet, but use the players actual wits to solve it (hacking/lockpicking minigames). Those however can additionally be restricted through level requirements because a system can be locked tight and only be broken into by professionals and i think they often are (like in fallout).

A roll system i like very much is what is used in shadowrun. Instead your skill level determining the throw target, it determines the amount of throws you get. 4 level in climbing would result in 4 d6 against a target of wall difficulty (which can be lowered by skills aswell)
You usually need only one success so rolling 4d6 against a 4 will likely succeed, but a 1 will negate your best roll, and if its more 1's than successes you fail horribly (slip and fall).
The roll target is determined like
1 Auto success
2 Slightly tricky
3 Moderately difficult
4 Exhausting or challenging
5 Very complicated
6 Omg so hard normal humans should only barely able to manage this

It can go above 6 though (they changed that in the editions 4th and up somehow though), in that case every 6 you throw can be rethrown and added up so you can throw up to elevenfiftyhundredthousandamillionbazillion. I never managed to go beyond around 20 though :p
This is only important if you roll your sneak skill against another players attention for instance, so your highest success becomes the other players target (or the amount of successes, i forgot).

I like this system because regardless of your skill level you have a chance at succeeding, but it may be slim. And no matter how big your skill level is, you still can fail.

Another interesting system is the dice pool (not sure how they're actually called in the english edition). You have a certain number of bonus dice you can use to support your next roll. These only refresh under certain circumstances though. Not entirely sure about the details anymore

^logging in, i did not

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I like the way Rolemaster handled skills and performing actions. The character can attempt anything, even if they've never done it before. If you have skill at performing an action you get a bonus. The action result is modified by the difficulty of the action, a subjective evaluation by the GM. Roll a die and if the combined result is over the necessary value, the action succeeds.

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Perhaps not so much related, but a long time back, I read about adventures, in particular what not to do.
One of the things was that actions should have a deterministic effect, ie if you need to get a key to open a door, the door should open with the key every time, rather than by 1/3 chance (making you go for a key several times before it works).

So perhaps there are different forms of random. You could have random success/fail, or success but by a varying degree.

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Wasn't what I was suggesting. This situation doesn't require use of a skill -- skills are only employed in non-trivial situations. Opening a door (with a key, or even if the door is unlocked and unobstructed) is a trivial action, and a skill check would not apply. Picking a lock open, or opening a door by force, would be a non-trivial action (which is when a skill would apply).

It's not like there will be a "walk" skill where every time someone takes a step, there is a skill check to see whether the character succeeds or trips over his shoelaces.

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Even in non-trivial situations use of a skill is not always necessary. Anyone can swing a sword, so combat can be resolved even if the characters aren't skilled in swordplay. A character could also attempt to pick a lock even if they've never done it before. The most likely outcome is that they won't succeed and worse case they'll break whatever they're using in the lock, making things worse. There is always a small chance though that they'll succeed.

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Well, in these particular instances, skill does technically factor into the results (i.e. "weapon proficiency" for swinging a sword; and "open lock" for picking a lock), it would just be a functional irrelevance.

There are exceptions -- such as "trained" skills (actions that require at least some skill to attempt), but those are relatively rare. As a general rule, though, any non-trivial action would have a skill tied to it (though there is certainly no compulsory "trained" requirement involved, allowing a character to apply an "old college try" to practically any action that requires some degree of skill).

Even falling involves skill. Well, maybe not falling on its own -- but with sufficient skill, one could potentially reduce damage from a significant fall (e.g. the "Tumble" skill in d20). It's not strictly a matter of invoking an action -- but also reacting to a circumstance.

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What most people don't understand about "enlightenment" is that it is not an end-goal; but where you find yourself just before taking a new "first step."

I think you're saying the same thing as me here.

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Yeah, I know you are at least as much of an RPG nut as I, but it seems even most CRPG players know very little about how things such as these actually work as far as implementation (since many have never had to play these types of games with paper and dice). My response was merely a clarification/explanation complementing what you said. Except the first sentence, of course, as that was just nitpicking (a bad habit I picked up during my Magic: The Gathering rules-lawyering days ).

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What most people don't understand about "enlightenment" is that it is not an end-goal; but where you find yourself just before taking a new "first step."

I found through my research all skills break down into about 9 categories.
Ability (AKA Magic, Super Powers,etc)
Athletics
Craft
Defense
Knowledge
Language
Negotiation
Offense
Sensory

In My game I am using a Rank system(like 3.0 Dnd) for the primary( the 9 above) and percent system for any specialized skills from the primary. The idea currently is that the primary are general skill level in those categories. The Secondary or Specialized skill mean you spent time either learning or training in them. Skill Check are done either by a set Target Number or rolling under your percent (Like CoC). Critical Failures, Successes and Botches are taken in account. The idea behind it is I want a game play experience where you focused on combat, story line and gear but still have options when dealing with skills and abilities. I have done something similar with base stats and combat.

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