Read the post and let me know what you think.

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The thoughts re: MMO all sound too high level to comment on. I keep thinking, "what would it be like if created?" For example, saying that player actions should be more meaningful sounds reasonable, but I think it's impossible. If player actions can be more meaningful, how are you supposed to let all the players make those meaningful actions? It saturates the experience and goes back to being just part of the grind.

I put my vote in "not MMO" because pulling off a fun MMO is nigh on impossible.

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At this point, they are pretty high level, but I'm hoping to expand on them once all the high level stuff is drained out of my brain.

Have you read all the other posts for the MMO/non-MMO I'm thinking about? It really does require dumping everything you know about MMOs and starting from scratch to make it actually fun to play instead of a grind.

Given the type of game I'm talking about player actions would be meaningful. Since the game is almost completely mission based and once a mission is done in the world, it's done forever, doing something matters. If you don't kill the terrorist, he goes on to blow up a plane and the failure is reflected in your personnel file. Your reputation is probably also stained, which means people (both player and non) might be less inclined to let you take part in other missions and you'll find advancement more difficult. Kind of like real life, but hopefully more "fun".


Why? Is it because of all the players on a server? Is it because what a player does doesn't really matter other than helping him level up? Is it because most quests in most MMOs suck design wise?

That's what I'm trying to do so if you have ideas and what's not fun now (besides grinding which I think almost everyone knows isn't fun) and what could be done to make it fun, jump in.

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While I think it could work either way, I would be inclined to vote, "Non-MMO".

The MMO, in my opinion, is great as a virtual world to explore and adventure in. However, since you have so many people involved, all with different styles of play, strengths and weaknesses, and yadda yadda, it can make for a rather disjointed experience. With a boatload of people playing, all of which may be spies (or the like), it might seem, as IGTHORN says, over-saturated with that aspect, and eventually go back to being a grind. Maybe a more interesting grind with a twist, but a grind none the less.

Also, if you make things *too* mission-based, it sort of defeats the purpose of the free exploration and adventuring aspect that makes MMO's popular. Not saying it would be a bad thing, but it's new grounds, and treading those is always risky.

On the other hand, if you go non-MMO, it would seem to be more cohesive. There may not be as much variety as far as the players go, but I could see it as an interesting twist to the usual co-op FPS. Instead of the tactics of being in the right place with the right weapon, or finding a good position to snipe people, the tactics might involve one or two team members creating a diversion while the rest of the team advance the mission directly.

Them's my two pennies. Be sure and pay me back by Tuesday, and don't forget the 1,000,000% interest that comes with that.

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MMO



Being able to impact the world means being able to affect what other players can and can't do. ie, a loss of a bridge is a loss felt by all players, until the bridge is repaired by NPCs, which requires resources and NPC manpower, which in turn affects the world economy. The plane could be an actual game vehicle, that NPCs/PCs use to get about the world. The loss of a plane could mean a loss of life, and a small loss of mobility, meaning longer waiting times at airports. With that level of detail and impact. it sounds like we're adding a deep strategy layer to the game.

If the MMO has two (or more) factions, then players will be doing missions to try and hurt enemy factions, while trying to prevent damage to their own faction. What will devising those official missions will be the AI, for NPCs to carry out. But NPC's can also recruit player characters, allowing missions to be delegated to players.

Also as players learn their way through the game world, and learn where their enemy's weak spots and strategically significant areas are, they'll be wanting to devise their own missions, and recruit other players to assist. It might be possible for players to write a mission profile and for other players to accept it like any other mission. If the strategy layer is complex enough, players will have the opportunity to be creative and ingenious, and that will surely be a source of exciting and meaningful missions for higher level players.

You must be suspicious of everybody, since they might be an undercover enemy agent, even in the assumed safety of your capital city. So you also have to be cautious about accepting their missions as they could well be harmful to your own faction, and if you suspect that a mission is like that, what would you do? If you call the agent out on it, they could simply rearrange their plans. If you raise alarm to your HQ, you should do so covertly and pretend to go along with the suspect mission so you can infiltrate it. Imagine how intense an undercover mission into an enemy city would be. Imagine how interesting missions could arise from complex tangles of bluffs and double bluffs. Imagine how rewarding it would be to con an enemy agent into doing something for you. Imagine how rewarding it would be to run a long con ~ going undercover and befriending an enemy player for several weeks, only to use them in a nefarious plan against their own faction at at a later date.

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The free exploration thing was great the first year or two that EQ was out. After that it was just a hassle having to run all over the world to get quests done. That's why mounts were developed. Horizons got around this by having horse shuttle services right off the bat. Part of why I played a druid and ranger in EQ was so that I could get around the world quicker.


Exactly. I think it'll be fun without the work involved in organizing and controlling a 75 person raid, which is the main group content in MMOs these days. I remember when clearing a dungeon was a 4 or 5 person job and was fun and exciting. I'm not sure why designers couldn't continue this into the high levels and had to make raids instead. While it may seem more of an accomplishment, it's more work, less fun. The fun aspect is more important IMO. MMOs stop being fun around the 50s or 60s level, which is why I quit playing them.


Ideas are cheap, implementation is what pays.

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Not that deep. The latter aspect doesn't necessarily need to be visible to the player. If agents need to get around the world they'll have private transportation probably or it'll be a non-event most of the time.

I think having actions that impact the world and thus other players in some way is important in an RPG, which is what MMOs are supposed to be. Very few feel like what I'm used to RPGs feeling like. It's time to bring that back.


If that's built-in, yes. The missions will be constructed by designers, not AI. There's no way AI can create missions of the type I'm thinking.


If players learn where enemies weak spots and significant areas are, the other side has done something wrong. HQs should be able to be changed if necessary. One agency may be able to stage a raid against another, but I haven't decided if that'll be something doable right off the bat. It would be something that's possible as an add-on. The problem is making something like that doable without it devolving into the 75 man raid mentality or screwing up the game balance since actions like that are permanent. The HQ wouldn't just reset.


Missions wouldn't come from random people, they're assigned by the agency HQ, at least at first. It might be possible for agents to investigate "tips" from anonymous people at some point, but making those people enemy agents would be difficult.


That's what I'm thinking. I'd love to see something like that, but studios just aren't thinking like that. They're all about making WoW clones and trying to cash in.

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Microsoft XNA MVP