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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Hello

I would like to make a angry birds game like this.

http://www.oobby.com/jeux-de-tirs/angry-birds/

What is the best software to do this?

Thx


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:14 pm 
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I'm going to assume you have no background in programing so most appropriate software for you would be any kind of game maker i guess?

If you want to learn programming through this game, I'm going to repeat what is said every time someone asks this, it doesn't really matter which programming language you choose. I think any of the .NET supported languages would be good for you to start (e.g. C# with XNA would probably start you off pretty well?)

idk, you can't really just march into a game programming forum a say "I want to make games, show me softwares" thats not how it works, you need to elaborate what exactly you need or browse the forum for older answers because there are plenty questions of the same nature as yours.

No matter what the outcome tho, the most important rule is to have fun while making the game :)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:39 am 
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When you say 'like this' do you mean running in a web browser?

I strongly oppose the idea of starting with the .NET stuff, we are in the 21st century, it is not a good choice to restrict yourself to the Microsoft universe nowadays.

If you never did anything with software development, maybe GameMaker is a good start to get you up and running, but for exporting to HTML5 you need to pay money, you could start your project with the free version though and then pay later once it is finished.

As a game developer, sooner or later you should target yourself for C++ (unless web games is your target) but as told, if you're new to programming, you're better off with some scripted graphical environment, like GameMaker, GodotEngine or Unity (the last two will require you to actually program, with GameMaker you might be able to do the first steps only using your mouse).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:02 pm 
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[quote=""Heiko]I strongly oppose the idea of starting with the .NET stuff, we are in the 21st century, it is not a good choice to restrict yourself to the Microsoft universe nowadays.[/quote]

Yeah, I don't agree, there are only 3 options, thats Windows, Mac OS and linux distros... and guess which one is at the top with the most gamers? And secondly, there are actually stuff like mono-project (which is basicaly .net for linux) and xamarin (.NET for android devices) so at this point, .NET is pretty much Java alternative but it can be used by a java programmer, C# programmer and as far as I know many more, even functional languages! The .NET universe is vast and in my opinion really easy to start with simply because it's on the most popular platform, it even has openGL on it (OpenTK) and DirectX is obviously supported too so... (Terraria was made with XNA which is .NET based)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:50 am 
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Hazarth wrote:
Yeah, I don't agree, there are only 3 options, thats Windows, Mac OS and linux distros... and guess which one is at the top with the most gamers?


Well, there is no reason for guesswork here, i can actually tell you exactly with which platform i as commercial one man band game developer had the most revenue over the last 5 years:

1. iPhone/iPad
2. Linux
3. Android
4. Windows
5. Mac OSX

Thing is, that many Linux user act like: Its available for Linux? I'll support the developer, no matter if i actually like the game. - While on Windows, unless you have a 50 million budget, you'll pretty much ride under the radar of the few gamers that actually play on Windows and not illegally copy their games.

Quote:
And secondly, there are actually stuff like mono-project (which is basicaly .net for linux) and xamarin (.NET for android devices) so at this point, .NET is pretty much Java alternative


With mono project you have exactly the same problem as with java: Either the user needs to have it installed (which about 0 people have that i personally know that run Linux) or you deliver it with your game, which can make even small games huge. ... plus it is usually quite a bit behind the official .NET stuff, version wise. Plus if you have to bundle it with your software, you'll have a lot of extra work, where on the game engines i named, you just press one button and you have your Android binary (for example).

...and i am not sure what exactly makes C# any easier to learn then any other language, i learned so many programming languages and in the end its always the same concepts, just a slightly differend syntax and/or names.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:41 am 
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[quote=Heiko]Well, there is no reason for guesswork here, i can actually tell you exactly with which platform i as commercial one man band game developer had the most revenue over the last 5 years:

1. iPhone/iPad
2. Linux
3. Android
4. Windows
5. Mac OSX[/quote]

Ok, you got me there :)

Heiko wrote:
With mono project you have exactly the same problem as with java: Either the user needs to have it installed (which about 0 people have that i personally know that run Linux) or you deliver it with your game, which can make even small games huge. ... plus it is usually quite a bit behind the official .NET stuff, version wise. Plus if you have to bundle it with your software, you'll have a lot of extra work, where on the game engines i named, you just press one button and you have your Android binary (for example).


-I don't think size is really a problem these days so including it with the project seems pretty logical to me.
-I agree with it being behind version, thats a little annoying here and there, bot not a real problem
-I agree with the last one

Heiko wrote:
...and i am not sure what exactly makes C# any easier to learn then any other language, i learned so many programming languages and in the end its always the same concepts, just a slightly differend syntax and/or names.


It's hard to explain, but I find C# much more user friendly (And I am not talking environment here). but the fact it doesn't use pointers anymore, and a lot of existing code is actually inside all the libraries, you just have to chose which ones you need, and stuff like events, delegates and properties makes it a a little bit faster to use (Tho i guess harder to understand?). Maybe thats just because I started with .NET and I find programming really fun ever since so I kinda connected those together :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:06 am 
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Hazarth wrote:
It's hard to explain, but I find C# much more user friendly (And I am not talking environment here). but the fact it doesn't use pointers anymore


If you develop C++ and use pointers, you are doing something wrong... or you use Qt, which in case of game development you might also be doing something wrong ;) - But there are more alternatives then C# and C++, actually none of the named engines uses C++ as language, C++ for me is just a personal preference, because its fast, and that's what we want in games development, don't we?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:27 am 
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Heiko wrote:
If you develop C++ and use pointers, you are doing something wrong...

OK, you will have to explain this one to me, because I can't imagine doing stuff without pointers in C++. thats pretty much the most effective way of passing references around in C and C++.

Heiko wrote:
But there are more alternatives then C# and C++

theres always an alternative :) Thats so beautiful in programming!

Heiko wrote:
C++ for me is just a personal preference, because its fast, and that's what we want in games development, don't we?


that depends, are you developing Crysis or something like that? Cause everything below that should run just fine on 8-10y/o machines anyway. I don't think angry birds fall into the "need speed" category.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:34 pm 
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Hazarth wrote:
Heiko wrote:
If you develop C++ and use pointers, you are doing something wrong...

OK, you will have to explain this one to me, because I can't imagine doing stuff without pointers in C++. thats pretty much the most effective way of passing references around in C and C++.


Yes it is, but the thing is, that you can either work like in the 80s and manage the memory yourself (which many former c users do, but unfortunately also some c++ beginners, because there are actual ancient tutorials out there, i think we need a cleanup procedure for the internet, to remove all the obsolete stuff. We are on C++11 nowadays. You sould be so fair to compare a C++ version from when C# did also exist, not one from the 80s ;-)

Not sure what C# does and too lazy to duckduckgo it right now, but i'm sure, C# does know pointers or references too, but you are not handling them yourself, and you should not either with modern C++

Quote:
that depends, are you developing Crysis or something like that? Cause everything below that should run just fine on 8-10y/o machines anyway. I don't think angry birds fall into the "need speed" category.


Well, we obviously have a different view here, i think it can never be fast enough, leaves you more room for visual bling bling or improved physics handling, even with an angry bird clone. And as long as you develop C++ as you should (C++11, no new/delete) you have speed and it is easy to learn. Still i think for kyky the better option would be one of the engines i mentioned, but C++ should be the target for everyone who plans to go into game dev for more then just a hobbie.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:49 pm 
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I always think I can do without pointers, till I have to build a linked list type data structure. :(

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Heiko wrote:
Yes it is, but the thing is, that you can either work like in the 80s and manage the memory yourself (which many former c users do, but unfortunately also some c++ beginners, because there are actual ancient tutorials out there, i think we need a cleanup procedure for the internet, to remove all the obsolete stuff. We are on C++11 nowadays. You sould be so fair to compare a C++ version from when C# did also exist, not one from the 80s ;-)

Not sure what C# does and too lazy to duckduckgo it right now, but i'm sure, C# does know pointers or references too, but you are not handling them yourself, and you should not either with modern C++


Honest question here so C++ 11 has a garbage collector or something like that? could you show what you mean in a piece of code, C++ is not exactly my "native" language here, I'm still happy to learn stuff :)

Heiko wrote:
Well, we obviously have a different view here, i think it can never be fast enough, leaves you more room for visual bling bling or improved physics handling, even with an angry bird clone.

Yup, we won't agree here, I'm much happier with good story/fun gameplay/mechanics then graphics and presentation rly :D it would be pointless and offtopic to talk about this anyway :) nice to know something new about you tho

Heiko wrote:
And as long as you develop C++ as you should (C++11, no new/delete) you have speed and it is easy to learn. Still i think for kyky the better option would be one of the engines i mentioned, but C++ should be the target for everyone who plans to go into game dev for more then just a hobbie.


I still think you're being a little to generous when it comes to C++. There are certainly situation where a program in Java or .NET would perform better but meh, I'm not going to change your mind here am I(unless u agree? idk xD do whatever you want)?

[quote=Codehead]I always think I can do without pointers, till I have to build a linked list type data structure.[/quote]
Aaarrggghhh :( I still don't understand how do you pass reference around without freakin' pointers in C++ X_x can please explain this to me? P_P I feel so stupid now... <_<

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:30 pm 
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C++11 has a number of management classes and container classes that can handle memory management for you in many cases.
http://en.cppreference.com/w/ in particular the "dynamic memory management" stuff http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory that has all kinds of objects that behave as a pointer. Since they are objects, the constructors and destructors can handle the memory.

These classes mostly allow you to avoid using pointers explicitly, thus avoiding explicit memory management.


As for references, it's the & operator in a type, as in

Code:
void f(int &x) { if (x > 4) { x--; f(x); } }

int z = 28;
f(z);

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:24 pm 
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Alberth wrote:
C++11 has a number of management classes and container classes that can handle memory management for you in many cases.
http://en.cppreference.com/w/ in particular the "dynamic memory management" stuff http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory that has all kinds of objects that behave as a pointer. Since they are objects, the constructors and destructors can handle the memory.

These classes mostly allow you to avoid using pointers explicitly, thus avoiding explicit memory management.


As for references, it's the & operator in a type, as in

Code:
void f(int &x) { if (x > 4) { x--; f(x); } }

int z = 28;
f(z);


but I know all this! damn it... I was expecting something really great that i didn't hear of but in the end, if you want to pass something into a function/method/constructor as a reference, you are going to use pointers in a way that you have to write the & symbol in front of the variable, basically saying "here, have an address to an existing object" and the function is going to use it as a freakin' pointer! So as I said before, you have to worry about pointers anyway, because for beginners, sudden appearance of a symbol "*" or "&" isn't exactly mind calming THUS the way that .NET (and I believe tons of others including java) handles object as kinda always being a reference is much more intuitive then stacking symbols in front of a variable and casting it in all kinds of weird pointer related stuff...

So again...

Heiko wrote:
If you develop C++ and use pointers, you are doing something wrong

why the hell is using pointers wrong, if they are pretty much inevitable every single time you need to pass a reference around, which i believe, you have to do pretty much always in game programming, since objects need a way to call to another objects which already exists (their addresses in the memory) instead of copies of those objects...

It's not that I think memory management is a problem, i just don't like how that sentence sounds

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:30 pm 
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Hazarth wrote:
Alberth wrote:
As for references, it's the & operator in a type, as in

Code:
void f(int &x) { if (x > 4) { x--; f(x); } }

int z = 28;
f(z);


but I know all this! damn it... I was expecting something really great that i didn't hear of but in the end, if you want to pass something into a function/method/constructor as a reference, you are going to use pointers in a way that you have to write the & symbol in front of the variable, basically saying "here, have an address to an existing object" and the function is going to use it as a freakin' pointer!


Sounds like you're confusing references and pointers. References are similar to pointers, but they will always point to the same object and can't be re-assigned to point somewhere else. The & operator is overloaded. If you place it after a type, it means "this is a reference". If you place it before a variable, it means "take the address of".

http://ideone.com/gUc7pA
Code:
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

int main() {
   // your code goes here
   int x = 10;
   int* x_ptr = &x; //take the address of x, assign it to a pointer to an int (int *)
   int& x_ref = x;  //create a reference to an integer (int&) and point it to x
   
   x_ref = 12; //you can use refs just like the original variable, no need to dereference
   cout << x_ref << endl;
   *x_ptr = 14; //you have to dereference a pointer before you can assign a value to the object
   cout << *x_ptr << endl;
   
   int y = 40;
   x_ptr = &y; //you can set a pointer to point to a different address
   cout << *x_ptr << endl;
   //x_ref = y; //there's no way to point x_ref anywhere else, the compiler will actually use this fact to make various optimizations
   
   return 0;
}


Oh, and check out http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory that Alberth linked to, pretty cool stuff. I'm completely noob at that newfangled C++11 stuff - never used it. But if you did use it, it looks like you'd not have to worry about dealing directly with pointers.

Still, I agree with you, C++ is a horrible place to start learning. There's a lot of unfriendly hurdles you have to jump as a beginner and other languages have much lower barriers to entry. Preferably something with a nice visual feedback loop. A totally non-technical friend of mine has learned a lot about programming from using Unity (and C#), seems like a nice place to start.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:36 pm 
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As IGTHORN pointed out, a reference and a pointer are slightly different. The semantic difference is inside the function (say "f" in my example), you treat the reference asif it is a normal integer (ie "x--" instead of (*x)--; ). Also, you cannot have a reference to NULL (or nullptr, in c++11).

I agree that c++ as first language is not ideal, my favorite choice would be Python. Perhaps Unity and c# are nice too, but I don't have windows. (Yep I know about mono, but I already don't have enough time now, no need to do even more things :) ).

Having reference in the language is good for learning, but it kills options for the programmer. The usual trick c/c++ of exporting data to the caller through a pointer fails to work if you need to export an object instead of a mere integer value or so (since you cannot change what a reference points to).
I miss that option dearly in Java :(

In Python (it also has references), the need for this trick has vanished since you can return multiple values without any effort.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:03 am 
Bytewise
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IGTHORN wrote:
Sounds like you're confusing references and pointers. References are similar to pointers, but they will always point to the same object and can't be re-assigned to point somewhere else. The & operator is overloaded. If you place it after a type, it means "this is a reference". If you place it before a variable, it means "take the address of".


Oh! O_o i didn't actually knew this! Thanks a lot!

IGTHORN wrote:
Still, I agree with you, C++ is a horrible place to start learning. There's a lot of unfriendly hurdles you have to jump as a beginner and other languages have much lower barriers to entry. Preferably something with a nice visual feedback loop. A totally non-technical friend of mine has learned a lot about programming from using Unity (and C#), seems like a nice place to start.


yes, I mean, just take me for an example right now.. I was learning C++ and C myself and I still didn't know what you just showed me. I'm studying informatics and and they didn't even show me this o_O they keep using pointers for everything...

I agree with Unity, it's a great start for game programming, and I also agree with Python which Alberth suggested for any kind of general programming rly. Python seems really intuitive in a lot of ways :P

Alberth wrote:
As IGTHORN pointed out, a reference and a pointer are slightly different. The semantic difference is inside the function (say "f" in my example), you treat the reference asif it is a normal integer (ie "x--" instead of (*x)--; ). Also, you cannot have a reference to NULL (or nullptr, in c++11).


yes, thanks to both of you :) I'm glad to learn new things and you two really helped ^_^

Alberth wrote:
Having reference in the language is good for learning, but it kills options for the programmer. The usual trick c/c++ of exporting data to the caller through a pointer fails to work if you need to export an object instead of a mere integer value or so (since you cannot change what a reference points to).
I miss that option dearly in Java :(


I made a whole engine in C++ using openGL with pointers X_x.. it was a crazy experience full of not understanding and rage XD

I really like how C# treats everything as a reference and it just kind of magically works exactly the way you want it to... Even tho it's a Microsoft product and it has really limited capabilities with cross-platform management, I think it's really easy to use and learn. Even the fact that you can use "var" instead of "int" or "string" or so is a great thing for beginners until they learn how datatypes work. :) ofc I really like Java too! I learned Abstract classes and Interfaces in Java!! yay~ xD

meh whatever :) just.. thanks

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:29 pm 
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Hazarth wrote:
yes, I mean, just take me for an example right now.. I was learning C++ and C myself and I still didn't know what you just showed me.


I'm pretty sure that's because you learned it from the internet, and thats the problem which i already admitted, the internet is full of ancient C++ tutorials, I'd strongly recommend anyone to learn C++ from a C++11 Book, you know... a Book... it's like a papery blog but from someone who actually knows what he is doing :geek

Quote:
I made a whole engine in C++ using openGL with pointers X_x.. it was a crazy experience full of not understanding and rage XD


I started making games in Assembler and i still think it is the best way to learn programming, but even back then there was stuff like Pascal, C or Basic (yuk) which was easier. Don't blame the options for taking the hard one ;)

Quote:
I really like how C# treats everything as a reference and it just kind of magically works exactly the way you want it to...


You should have said: 'the way i want it to' because i find myself often in situations where i either explicitly want a copy or a reference, c++ gives me a simple way to do this by just adding an & in front of the varname for a reference and none for a copy, instead of forcing me to type something like myfunction(myobj.dearCompilerCouldYouPleaseProvideACopyOfMyObjectKThxLOL()); each time i want a copy >:D

Quote:
Even the fact that you can use "var" instead of "int" or "string" or so is a great thing for beginners until they learn how datatypes work. :)


Again, do not compare it to anciant C++ please, i'd recommend to use, the following, which is exactly the same as puttin 'var' in front of it:
Code:
auto myObject = someFunctionDeliveryingSomeObject();

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:02 pm 
Bytewise
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Hazarth wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's because you learned it from the internet, and thats the problem which i already admitted, the internet is full of ancient C++ tutorials, I'd strongly recommend anyone to learn C++ from a C++11 Book, you know... a Book... it's like a papery blog but from someone who actually knows what he is doing


I'm learning C and C++ at school right now and they didn't tell me that.. so no.. And I read a lot of books.. don't try to compare me to a standard moron who trolls facebook all day long.. you are insulting my intelligence... thanks...

Hazarth wrote:
You should have said: 'the way i want it to' because i find myself often in situations where i either explicitly want a copy or a reference, c++ gives me a simple way to do this by just adding an & in front of the varname for a reference and none for a copy, instead of forcing me to type something like myfunction(myobj.dearCompilerCouldYouPleaseProvideACopyOfMyObjectKThxLOL()); each time i want a copy


Yeah, well if I wanted to say that I would.. but I wanted the message to sound more dramatic and emotional... so just.. leave what I wanted to say to me... I'm capable of talking myself...

Hazarth wrote:
Again, do not compare it to anciant C++ please, i'd recommend to use, the following, which is exactly the same as puttin 'var' in front of it:
Code:
auto myObject = someFunctionDeliveryingSomeObject();


good to know

I'll be honest here, I found your messages very patronizing and kind of aggressive... It may be the case that I'm taking this more personally than I should but I can't help to feel that way when reading your comments... The other people already explained what I was asking about in much more friendly manner and I admit I was wrong with the pointer thing... When talking to you however I can't shake the feeling you are punching your "superiority" down my throat instead of normal communication and I don't like it...

Also I'm pretty sure OP it not going to respond anymore o_O.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:54 pm 
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Hazarth wrote:
I'll be honest here, I found your messages very patronizing and kind of aggressive... It may be the case that I'm taking this more personally than I should but I can't help to feel that way when reading your comments... The other people already explained what I was asking about in much more friendly manner and I admit I was wrong with the pointer thing... When talking to you however I can't shake the feeling you are punching your "superiority" down my throat instead of normal communication and I don't like it...

Also I'm pretty sure OP it not going to respond anymore o_O.


OMG, how many smilies does one have to make that even you get it, that i'm making fun? Didn't even the 'papery blog' gave you a hint that i'm joking!?!? (and i actually stole that joke from the great Craig Ferguson ;) ). The only paragraph i was not making a smiley was the one about auto, because i was explaining... I was not explaining anything before, because others were faster, i'm not on gpwiki all the time, sorry.

I just find id a bit weired, that you seem to be somewhat on your personal 'i have to tell everybody to use C# because its the only one' crusade - i don't like religious people, no matter how their religion may manifest.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:44 pm 
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